Champions Mojo
Comeback stories, courageous causes, and meaningful mindsets—all toward better health, for a better you. Real resilience from world-class champions to everyday advocates, plus practical tips and powerful interviews. Hosted by Health & Comeback Coach Kelly Palace, world-class Masters swimmer and former Division I head coach. A podcast that champions you!
Champions Mojo
How A Busy ER Doc Swims To Win 100 National Titles: Kurt Dickson, ENCORE EP 287
What does it take to win national swimming titles while working chaotic ER shifts and raising a competitive family? In this encore episode, we sit down with masters legend and ER physician Kurt Dixon to unpack the habits, mindset, and simple systems that keep him fast at 54—and grounded through real-life storms. Kurt’s résumé is staggering: 100+ U.S. masters national wins, world records, the Triple Crown of Marathon Swimming, and Ironman finishes. Yet his playbook is refreshingly unfancy: repeatable sets, six days a week in the water, no strength training, and a taper built on broken 200s to spark race speed. He talks candidly about racing anxiety, why practice times don’t predict his meets, and how to stay calm when the late-race pain hits in the 1000 and 1650.
We also explore the mental framework that turns adversity into fuel. After job upheaval, family crises, and the pandemic, Kurt rebuilt with a three-part response: forgive to clear mental space, choose better environments and patience, then harness primal energy into training. That shift led to one of his best competitive years. You’ll hear how he uses long swims to focus, how ER trauma changes the way he defines pressure, and why consistent naps and weekly yoga matter more with age. He shares injury lessons, simple shoulder prehab, and technique tweaks that protect joints without sacrificing speed.
On the personal side, Kurt’s humor shines. He loves milk chocolate and M&Ms, trains mostly alone, and jokes about buoyancy over body composition. His wife—a decorated cyclist—pushes him with epic rides, and their family has racked up miles and memories traveling to events. For masters swimmers, triathletes, and endurance fans, this conversation is packed with practical training tips, taper tactics, recovery strategies, and performance mindset tools you can use right away.
If this story resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs a spark, and leave a quick review to help others find us. And if you’re craving more investigative health storytelling, check out Kelly’s new book, False Cure, by visiting https://www.False-Cure.com
Email us at HELLO@ChampionsMojo.com. Opinions discussed are not medical advice, please seek a medical professional for your own health concerns.
Hello, friends. This is Kelly Pallas, host of Champions Mojo, your place for better health, resilience, and master swimming. I'm taking a short break from recording new episodes of Champions Mojo for two exciting reasons. First, I'm launching my latest book, False Cure. It's a whistleblowing investigative journalism book about a denied health epidemic. If you'd like more information on that, it's in the show notes. The second and most compelling reason I'm on a break is here at Champions Mojo, we're preparing for the January 2026 reboot of powerful new weekly episodes with expert guest interviews, inspiring topics, and tips to take your mindset, health, and personal performance to the next level. We will be announcing some incredible partnerships with the show, and I guarantee what we have in store for you will empower you and keep your mojo strong in the new year. While I'm preparing some of this great stuff, we've selected some of our best shows ever for an Encore series. My hope is that if this is your second time listening to this episode, you'll take away even more insight and motivation. Or if it's your first time, you'll love this episode as much as everyone else did. So settle in and enjoy this Encore presentation in its entirety. I am co-hosting with Maria Parker. Hey Maria. Hi, Kelly. It's so great to be with you today. Yes. Before we tell you all about our special guest today, Kurt Dixon, let's welcome him to the show while he sits there. Hey, Kurt.
unknown:Hey Kurt.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_02:Great, great to see you. So great to have you, Kurt. Yes. So a masters athlete champion. These masters athletes are truly amazing. They're living full lives with day jobs outside of their stellar accomplishments as athlete. And we are in the presence of someone who is a true inspiration in Kurt Dixon. He is a full-time ER physician. He has been on the front lines of COVID. We can talk with him about that a little. He said it is slowing down, but you know that he's been training hard while he's been an ER physician. His master swimming resume speaks to what a champion he is. Currently, Kurt is 54 years old, specializing in the longer freestyle events and backstroke. He's been a US master's national champion 95 times, which means 95 All-American honors. He's also a two-time Fena world record holder, seven-time USMS long distance all-star. And in 2021, in the 50 to 54 men's age group, he added his first ever pool all-star honor, which is the highest honor in U.S. master swimming. But there's more, isn't there, Maria? Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. He's not just been earning U.S. master swimming awards, he's also completed the highest honor in marathon swimming, known as the Triple Crown of Marathon Swimming, which get ready, includes the swim around Manhattan, which is 28 and a half miles, the English Channel Crossing, 21 miles, and swimming the Catalina Channel 20.2 miles, which in 2021 he earned the fastest time of the year in just over nine hours. And if that wasn't enough for us, he's also a five-time Iron Man finisher. So let's not delay anymore and get to finding out what makes this incredible champion tech Kirk Dixon. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks. Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01:So glad to have you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Kurt, I we're just so excited. I think there's just millions of questions we have. We're going to start off with how do you have time to train for such long events with a schedule of an ER physician?
SPEAKER_00:It's just important enough to me to make the time. I've I've always I work a lot of weird hours. It's a different time every day. And it's hard to get into a schedule or a routine, but it's important enough to me to just kind of carve out some time to do a little bit every day.
SPEAKER_01:Do you have, do you have like, even though you don't have a routine, do you have a like be always before work or always after work kind of thing going? Or do you just every day wake up and say, okay, today it's going to be blah, blah, blah?
SPEAKER_00:I usually try to go after work because work kind of makes me sad and I don't want to, I don't want to be sadder by being more tired. But uh I I try to do it after, but I mean if it's if I'm like today, I'm I'm in a few, I'm going in in about an hour or so. So I'll I swam this morning, but I usually I don't like to get up super early anymore. I I I had 20 years of that and I don't really need it anymore. So I don't do like the 4 a.m., 5 a.m. stuff anymore. So I I usually try to do it, you know, after if I can.
SPEAKER_02:So you're gonna swim twice today?
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm just gonna swim once today. I swam this morning and then I'm going to work in a little bit here.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, oh, so when you get off, it'll actually be tomorrow, maybe?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it kind of will, it kind of will be, but I'll probably just go since I'm tapering, I'll probably just do once today. I don't usually do a lot of two-a-days anymore. That's the beauty of master swimming. You don't have to do two-a days anymore. You do whatever you want.
SPEAKER_02:So, what does that look like? What is what is a general week of, you know, we see that or we hear that you're not doing um, you know, a schedule, but is there a certain number of yardage per week or a certain number of days or a certain number of um pace sets, or what does that look like for you?
SPEAKER_00:I it's kind of various. I and my my rest times are more when I have like more work, so I end up like just maybe doing more easy stuff. But I worked yesterday and uh till midnight or so, and then I today I have I'm doing it, I did a taper workout. But I mean in general I do uh you know three to four thousand a day, and it's mostly for me, it's mostly I actually do the same set almost 70% of the time. Um it's kind of a weird, it's it just it's just easy. I don't have to think about it. I just go and do the same workout a lot, actually. So it's what is that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. What is that set?
SPEAKER_00:It's not all that exciting, but it's I do like three or four three hundreds like freestyle on like four minutes, and I try to, you know, descend them, and then I do four, three or four two hundreds um backstroke on three. Just try to descend those and then I'll do some pulling and kicking and get out mostly. That's about my general day usually.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, just to translate that, because I know there will be people that might not understand that quick jargon. Um, so the 400s are on a 115 base. I mean the 300s are on a 115 base and the 200s backstroke are on a 130 base. So that's that's a pretty, pretty uh tight interval for most mortals.
SPEAKER_01:Um but three, go ahead. Yeah, my question was do you generally swim just whenever, you know, is your pool like a Y and you just get over there and swim whenever there are other people around? Do you try to ever make practices with another with a group?
SPEAKER_00:Uh where I'm at, there's nobody else. I've um yeah, I lived in Phoenix for 24 years and there was nobody there either. I mean, there's places if you wanted to travel, I just never was uh I used I sounded like I wasted a lot of time going to you know 30 minutes or 45 minutes to wherever else somebody is. So I I generally train alone. Some people have a hard time with that. I don't I don't mind it as much. Um as a master swimmer, I can, you know, if I don't feel great, I don't have to worry about bracing somebody. I just do what do what is best for me and and it so it takes a little pressure off it and actually makes it more enjoyable for me. But some people absolutely have to have somebody else they won't do it. So everybody's different. But for me, I like just kind of swimming on my own.
SPEAKER_01:Have you always been self-coached, or do you or have you had a coach in the past?
SPEAKER_00:I as master's athlete, never. I've always just swam on my own. So I'd I've been doing this since I don't know, 92 or 93 or so. And I've never really had a coach.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, so um we we read kind of your your master's highlights, but for you know, your background as swimming at Brigham Young University, you were a team captain and did incredibly fast times as a college swimmer. What do you think that you carry over from your college days that have helped you as a master's swimmer?
SPEAKER_00:Um I used to think that that maybe swimming, like I used to somebody think I was maybe better at it because I worked so hard at it, but I think talent does have some role in in things. I don't I think it helps, it it helps to be have some background, and especially a technical sport like swimming, because I see I did I've done a lot of triathlons, and uh it seems like most triathletes just pretty much ignore the swim. And then and you can do that kind of because it's not that big of part of any triathlon, but it it is the the you know you can die from it too. It it's very it's so they I think it's important to have I've been in some the first Iron Man I did, uh it was Iron Man Utah, the guy died in it. So, but it is it I think they they tend to ignore it, and uh I think it's helpful just to do that. Um, for for me, I used to do a lot of triathlons, and over the years I've kind of maybe I've gotten lazy, but I just feel like uh I could spend three hours being a like a above average uh triathlete. I could spend like maybe an hour a day being one of the best in the world at masters for me. So like it just for me, I've gotten like just more focused. I just I I think it's I like to be good at something and and I like I really enjoy triathlon, but it just, you know, I it's just so much time, and it's just it was just better just to be good at something and just keep keep going with it and also spend too much time with it.
SPEAKER_01:Do you do you when you're you know, you do these amazingly long swims? And I do long bike rides, so I understand what that's like alone. Um, you know, what do you what do you think about? Do you think about work or do you just breathe? You know, what do you think about when you're doing these long either practices or events?
SPEAKER_00:Uh the longer swims is sort of you got to check out a little bit. It's uh you know, the Catalina and the English channel, you're just you're just trying to like I a lot of times I'll just blank out, or sometimes I'll just sing songs in my head, or uh it's it's it's it's variable. Sometimes you just think about little problems you have or whatever, but it's uh it's mostly checking out. I mean, you you think about trying to try to clo across the English channel, it's about 80,000 strokes, and you just have to just it's uh you I remember when I was doing Catalina a few months ago, and I was just like, it's just pitch black, and you're looking off, like, I don't know if I want to do this. It's just like it's just darkness, and you just there's nothing to focus on. There's little critters swimming around, and it's kind of creepy, and it's you just kind of have to check out a little bit, I think. But it's it's it's one one step at a time, I think. That's you know that that helps. So that begs the question, why? I don't think I like myself. I like to abuse myself. I'm the youngest of seven children, and I just I I think I've just gotten used to just beating on myself and and and I don't know. It's just we're we're all by family's pretty competitive, though. But it it I don't know, it must be some sort of uh I think there is a mental illness I have. I'm not really sure.
SPEAKER_01:I haven't put a finger on it, but you're you're you're kind of being funny, but um, you know, as a physician, you know, you you see you do see mental illness. They walk into the ER every single day, I'm sure. Um it's it's no, I I I'd I'd love you for you to go a little bit deeper on that. Like, you know, you you keep challenging yourself with these really tough, tough things. Um, and you know, could I want youngest of seven, but you're 54, you got nothing to prove, you've done it all, you know. So why? Why do you keep on like what's next and why would you do that next thing?
SPEAKER_00:There's an old Warren Zevon song. I feel I'd rather feel bad than feel nothing at all. And I think that uh uh for me, I just feel more alive when I when I do things. I mean, there's not it just it gives me more meaning, I think, to my life. I don't know. It's it's uh sometimes I feel like it's kind of lame. I'm out, I'm 54 and I'm in a speedo, about ready to go to the nationals in a few weeks, and it's like, why does anybody you know, like why does anybody care? But it's like, you know what? I I enjoy that, it makes me happy, so I I do it. But that it there's probably uh a little of you know, this feeling of inadequacy that you get people struggle with too. This you know, you got to prove yourself, and you still and some people have it stronger than others, and I think I have it pretty strong, and you just you keep wanting to prove yourself, but there there is a little of just I think it helps you just feel for me, it helps you feel happy, so that's why I do it.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Yeah, yeah. So discomfort, you know, you like the discomfort or like to at least be done with it, or the physical you said I'd rather feel nothing than or feel something than nothing at all. That's interesting. Okay. Go ahead, Kelly. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02:Your your master's resume is amazing. Is there anything within the master's community that you have not done yet that you would still like to do? Like what's on the list?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I I keep eyeing uh like world records that are like individual. I have like I've got some relay world records that that have gone, but I'd like to get an individual one. But I I I I I eyed them like 10 years ago, and then by the time I get there, someone's like just crushed it. So uh I'm getting old enough that I'm getting closer. So there's there's there's one that I I was looking at maybe that I can maybe get coming up here, but I don't know. It's one of those things. Yeah, there's not not a lot of other things that I really want to do, but I yeah, I would like to get an individual world record at some point. I'm not sure how meaningful it is when you're 110, but you know, right up.
SPEAKER_02:It does, it means a lot. Now live everyone. I I'm I'm just in the 60 age group and and I see that. It's like, okay, just show, just keep showing up.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You, I I went through your database, your USMS database, and looked at your times. And it appears to me that you are not slowing down much, if any at all. If you, you know, arguably, if you took kind of an average of your 200, 500,000, 1650, you know, you might have you might be faster in the the 500, but slower in the 200, or faster in the mile, but slower in the 1000. But you're you're you're holding your own with these times that are pretty incredible from your thir 35. In fact, you have some times now at 55 that are actually faster than when you were 35, which um tell us how how you're continuing to maintain this fast pace.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so like I won my Twitter backstroke in 1996 with a 217, and I won it 20 years later with the same time. So it's I I don't I go well, I wish I knew the answer to it. Um, but I like I like to think I it's because I work hard and I'm consistent. I don't miss workouts. If I don't feel like something, I'll if I'm having a bad day, I'll just go swim a little easy. And I usually swim six days a week, right regardless. I don't know if that's it or God feels sorry for me, or if if it's like if it's if if I age better than other people, there are people I like would beat the crap out of me 20 years ago that I could either beat now or or beat or have a good race with them or or beat them pretty badly now. So I don't know, I really don't know what it is that I've done. Like I I I have tried to be consistent, and I don't know if that's a secret if I just have have you know good genes and I age better than other people. I mean, I my patients used to tell me like, you know, not too long ago they looked like a 12-year-old, but I I don't have that problem anymore. People definitely think I'm old now, but I I think I I I might have aged a little better than other people, but I don't know. I don't really know the answer to that. But I I've thought about it a lot and I really I I can't I can't tell you for sure what it is.
SPEAKER_02:Consistency and how about your body composition? Because I I I feel the same way. Like there are women that just crushed me in 35, 40, 45, um, and now you know they're either nowhere to be found or they're not, you know, in the top 10 anymore. So are you do you think there's a, you know, has your body composition changed? Has your your dry land routine changed? But consistency, can you drill down a little bit on that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, I I wish I could say I'd like I I worked, I mean, uh there's a lot of things I don't do that I should do. Like I eat, I eat like I like MMs and I eat a lot of junk, and I think I've gotten a lot fatter. I think since I was in college, I was like 150 pounds and I'm like 220 now. So I don't know how. So uh I I like my desserts. I do, I do go to workout lot, but I don't I don't do any weights. I do zero weights. So like I've never done weights. I used to at college go to uh the weight room and the the coach would try to kick me out of the weight room because he didn't know I was the weight coach, thought I was like didn't belong there. And the other swimmers had to tell him that I was like the best swimmer on the team and you can't kick him out. It was a good place for an absolute. Um I no, I I I think for me it was, I mean, I do this same almost the same set every day. I I I go every day, but I don't I as a as a master's person, I don't I I guess I could have been more more uh you know regimented, but I don't think I have been. So I don't other than just trying to make it to work out every day and not miss any swimming, I I I don't do anything else special.
SPEAKER_01:No secrets. My question for you is that you mentioned sleep earlier. Um, and I've I've had the exact same progression. I used to give up sleep to get up in the morning and work out because I'd think I'd have a better day if I did that. Now I don't. I I let I I get more rest. Would you tell tell us about talk to us about your your your sleep patterns? Because as a ER physician, I know that must be a little bit un you know unusual. And how do you protect your sleep?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, it's pretty hard. I was uh till midnight last night, and then I'm working till midnight tomorrow, and then tomorrow I'm working the next day I'm working until 7 a.m. I'm working all night for three nights, and then I gotta somehow recover before nationals next week. And as you get older, it is impossible. It's like you you feel I'm not bad the day after a night shift uh that day, but the day after I swim slow and I end up a lot of times getting swimming arranged so that it ends up I'm I'm there, but I just try to do the best I can. But I'll you know, I'll I'll try to like take naps before work. Uh, you know, today's gonna be an exception because I'm spending lovely time here. But um I I just I I take a lot of naps and I'm not ashamed of it. I'll I'll try to just like you know, we we got this family thing we're gonna go do, or we're gonna do this. I'm like, you know what? I gotta go to work in an hour and I just need to lie down for a half hour, just relax. But so I it's it's hard and it gets harder as you get older because it's harder to sleep. I think most old people like I I I wake up three or four times a night to go number one, and uh it's uh it's tragic. It's it's hard to be back to sleep. And uh I don't know. I don't know how people how people do it, but I do the best I can. But as uh for me, a lot of it's just taking try to take naps when I can.
SPEAKER_02:But how about injuries? Yeah, what uh what if uh have you had any injuries? Or you know, if so, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00:Um I've had some you know shoulder issues, uh, you know, and I I try to do like every day or every other day, I'll do like some shoulder rehab type stuff that everybody probably knows about. But um it it would that that that's helped, and I kind of change my stroke a little bit so that I don't impinge my shoulder as much. Um I've had some back issues. Um I do I try to do yoga like once a week just to that I think that's out of all the things I do, I think that helps the most for my back. Um so I try to try to do like just shoulder exercises and that. I mean, sometimes I I think the other thing with performance is like some of my best meets, I I like hurt my shoulder like you know, two or three weeks before the big race, and I'll just like kick and just bit minimize the amount of swimming. And I'm amazed how much how well you could do, even for like the distance events without with a lot of with a lot of rest and not not actually swimming. You you get in and you try to kick and you try to do kind of minimal stuff, but I I I've I've had really good success with even with injured uh doing pretty well on a swim meet.
SPEAKER_01:So I was just telling Kelly that before we turn the mics on. It's it's really true. Rest as you're older, that rest line makes a huge um impact on your performance, you know. So you can't not rest. I mean, you can't not work out, you gotta work out. I I I gotta ask about your family. How how do they support you or not in your athletics endeavor? How do you fit that in with um being, you know, having a family?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, they're all adults, uh, so they're out of the house now, so it's okay now, but they they all sort of seemed my my daughter told me once that they were uh all our vacations were always around races. And I'm like, you got a vacation. I don't have to tell you. We went to we went to San Diego one one year. I found that uh uh my wife did an open uh bike race on Friday, an open I did an open race on Saturday, and then we were biking all week along the coast in San Diego and the Tour de France was on. We take them to you know Lego land and all that in the afternoon, and you know, and and then the next weekend I found a triathlon to do, and then we left it was like an eight-day thing, and it was kind of cool. Uh they they just think it's all about races, and I I guess I'll I'll just have to live with that. Um, but yeah, it it's it's hard to fit things in. And I I I probably could have been a better parent. My wife, uh, she actually she's a big bicep, she was like national champion bike triathlon or uh uh time trial champion, and she was like the Arizona's fastest female, like six years in a row. So she was pretty fast. She's done uh a lot of the longer races, and so we we try to one-up each other, so that's good. So, like we just she does something painful. She did uh a couple years ago, did the uh Paris Rest Paris race is like 758 miles in three days. And uh so we we I do the English channel, she does that, and then I go do the Catalina channel. She's doing uh the unbound race that's in Kansas here. It's a 200-mile gravel race, it's uh coming up in a month or so. So we you know, I see she might win. I I don't think I'm gonna do any more painful things, so she might have might have won up to me. We'll see how it goes.
SPEAKER_01:Do you go and support her when she's racing? Or like uh the uh Paris Press Paris, that's a that's actually not a race.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's not exactly a race, right? Yeah, I mean I I I went over there and followed her around and kind of got yelled at by the Parisians. They don't they don't they don't like they don't like Americans very much. I didn't get that I didn't get that feeling. But anyway, they so I try to find pools along the way while she was out riding and I'd get yelled at by the lady because I did she didn't speak anyway. It was it was kind of traumatic for me, but I I got over it. No, yeah, I I'm I'm taking the weekend off for her race coming up and we'll I'll go see if I can help her out a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:But she and I I read in uh the Your English channel crossing that she was there supporting you. Um Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Her my daughter, I brought my daughter and her husband out and they were out there helping too.
SPEAKER_01:So nice. It's nice. So are you do your kids do sports or are they just like totally burned out from following you and your wife around?
SPEAKER_00:Um I had a couple, uh they all swam to some degree. Uh a couple of them swam where I swam in college. I had two daughters that swam at BYU. So yeah. One of them actually swam for the same coach that I had for at there, but he had retired. So but yeah, they all they all swam to a degree, not as crazy as me, but anyway.
SPEAKER_02:I love it. So obviously your sense of humor is one of your, I think I would observe it as one of your gifts that helps you get through tough things. What else can you tell us about your mindset when you're going into and let's let's not because again, mortals are, you know, us mere mortals are not going to probably do the English Channel or Catalina or any of swim around Manhattan. But when you're in a a pretty high pressure situation, so you're you're heading off, you know, next week to swim at the USMS, you know, national championships. We're, you know, almost 2,000 people are in this meet. A lot of fast people from all over the country come. It's it's probably the most high pressure meet for a master. If if you're if you have uh performance anxiety as a master swimmer, this is not the meet to show up at. And so what is your mindset when you're going into something where you know you're gonna get a little challenged?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I I wish I had my mindset now as I when I had a kid. When I was a kid, I was kind of afraid of pain and I was afraid of other competitors. And I'm just I don't have that same fear anymore. I just I you know it I don't know if it's life or or emergency work, but it's like when somebody shows up with their like dying baby and you're like, that that's that's terror right there. And I I've I've lived through a lot of things, seen a lot of bad things in the ER that it's like that's pressure. What I got what me sporting a speedo at 54 years old and trying to do a time is is not really pressuring me anymore. I mean, I I've gone through so many things in my life that it's just it's it's I don't I it doesn't it doesn't phase me. I mean I get nervous, you know, but it's not it's not nearly as bad as when I was younger. I was just I was kind of like it's you it's hard to hard to compete when you're younger. It's like, yeah, there's that guy's pretty fast. I know that guy's pretty fast, or you know, this is gonna really hurt. The problem with distance people is like you have to just keep, you know, you don't have any talents, you have to keep going longer and longer. So that that gets more and more painful. So that's that's where I've gone. I mean, I if I had any talent, I'd be stopping at the 50, but I I I had to keep going longer so that I could uh you know do it. So but it that that it's kind of hard to get over that pain that you know, that mental pain that you're gonna you're gonna hurt hurt pretty bad. So but I think I've gotten tougher over the years, that's for sure. So with with everything that's gone on, I think.
SPEAKER_01:So do you pay much attention to your competitors? I mean, are you like, uh, do you pay any attention to your competitors? Are you aware that the guy next to you is, you know, he's he's gonna give you a run for your money?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And I and I've noticed uh the ones that are my competitors this year, like, and they've done it a lot lately, they actually like put a lot slower times down. And I'm like, I understand why they do it. I just don't know. I just don't I think if you're gonna if you're gonna win a national championship, you should come to the the big boy heat with the rest of us. But I I don't know why why they why they why they did it. I'm not calling anybody out, but I am. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I I hear are people actually doing that? They they deliberately do slower times to be in a different heat.
SPEAKER_00:There's uh there's there's there's a lot of people that are very good that sandbag, and I don't understand I I I get it, I guess if you're like a 50 swimmer and you want clear water, but if you're like a mile swimmer or whatever, I don't know what I don't I don't know why they're they're doing it. I I I like I like them all, I just don't understand it, and I don't I don't think I'll ever get an explanation out of them. Maybe they just don't want to the pressure of it, but it it's interesting to me because it's some of the people that are like at least a couple of them are like the I would say like the best uh uh distance swimmers in like their body of work is the best of master swimming. And I I I've noticed that they've done that more recently, and I'm I'm not sure why they're doing that, but anyway.
SPEAKER_02:So well, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw in a fellow distance swimmers gripe. Uh so they're mixing us men and women in the mile and the thousand, which you know separates us from who we need to be racing anyway. So maybe the person that, you know, there are some fast young, you know, young bucks women that are probably gonna be in your your heat. So they might have knocked you out from being next to the person that you need to race anyway, even if that person was entered with the right time. So um I I don't get the whole mixing of the genders for this meet for this meet.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't I there there's a lot of things that perplex me. I don't know why they don't. I think they're trying, they they let you do both, but like it's like very hard to do. I mean, I did last year, I did the 1650 and a thousand, and it's hard to do that in one day. I mean, going full on on a 1650 and then right out like two hours later doing a thousand, it's pretty hard. And I don't know why I think that they they're letting you do it, but it's like no one's dumb enough to do it. Not very many people are dumb enough to do it, but it'd be nice if they maybe put one at the front and one at the end. I guess they don't have the time for it. I don't know what they're trying to do, but it and then the mixing genders, I I could see why a woman wouldn't want to be they're a lot, they'll make a lot more waves and and that. So I get that too. And and you're not with your competition, but um, I've I I I complain a lot to them, but they stop. They don't I could tell they don't listen to me, so I stopped.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I know at Long Course, uh Long Course Nationals are having the 800 and the 1500 on different days, and you can enter them both.
SPEAKER_00:So are you sure about that? They usually do they do they they usually do it. You can you can only they'll you can only do one of them though when they do that. They are gonna let you do both.
SPEAKER_02:It it looks like they are. Order of events is out and they're on different days. So I'm thinking maybe they will.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't think they have the rules out because every time they're gonna. Oh, maybe the rules aren't out. Oh they don't make they don't let you do both of them, I think. But that's what they've done in the past. But I I'm sadly not gonna make it. I I I I I I I've had to bow up to a family uh thing, and I'm kind of sad about it. But anyway, it's uh I'm not gonna make summer national snow.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I just I just I think you know, I'm listening to you, you're so self-deprecating, you know. You use you you use your sense of humor and and and I love how you compare real life, you know, which you're you're really seeing that some of the ugliest parts of life in the ER and the most difficult parts. But I I'd love to know if they're you know, just real talk. You know, you are a champion. You're doing incredible things, and it's it's not just good luck and it, you know, it's not the MMs. You know, what other routines or or you know, what things that you say to yourself, you know, what we really want to get your secrets. Come on.
SPEAKER_00:Um I jeez, I wish I could tell you anyway. I don't I really don't mind the sec secret telling. I just don't know what they are. I really don't. I I I for me I just I just I just Show up every day. I don't and I mean I I have a large bloated panace here, and I I maybe that's making me more buoyant. I don't know. I just don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Consistency. I like that. I'll take that. I like consistency and showing up. I think that is definitely a routine. So, but you like what do you say to yourself in the middle of this painful you're gonna swim 1615 next week? So and it's gonna start to hurt at some point where you're gonna be in the 40s and you know, you're gonna want you know, you got 20 more slips and you're in pain. What what are you what is your inner voice saying?
SPEAKER_00:Uh well it's just why do I do this to myself? It's it's you know that that uh you know I really like the thousand better than the thousand better than the mile, because a thousand you'd start dying about this eight eight hundred and you got only two hundred. But the the mile you die about eleven hundred, and you got a long ways to go still. And it's it's uh it's just trying to stay with it, try to keep your stroke together and and uh and uh don't blow up. I mean, I just it's just it's it's just gutting it out. It's it's a tough event. I mean, you wouldn't think a thousand and a sixteen fifty would be all that different, but it is. I mean, I go totally different paces for both of them, and it's it's just uh it's a it's a different I I can I can put my head around a thousand a lot better, but uh, 1650 is just a tough event. You just gotta you just gotta just know know the pain's coming and be ready for it. And hopefully you've you know prepared yourself and you know the person that's the person that's uh sandbagged next to you that's gonna like now come by you. There's nothing worse than getting uh at a long distance event where somebody you got you went out too hard and this guy just comes right by you and you're just you're crying like a little baby, but you just gotta you just gotta stay with it. That's all I I don't know. You just gotta stay with it and just try to stay stay with your your stroke and everything.
SPEAKER_01:Is there anybody you're you're trying to impress when you get out of the pool? Is it your wife or your co-workers or your I mean, is there anybody you're thinking about like I gotta do decent on this because otherwise I'm gonna I'm gonna be, you know, have to hang my hit.
SPEAKER_00:I I mean I do it, I mostly do it, do it for myself. It's always it's always every year, it's like I I go nowhere near what I can do in a in a race in workout. Like some people, I don't know, they they tell you about this high intensity training. I've never been able to do it. I have never been able to come close to it. If I did a 500 like hard in in workout, I might be able to go like a 530, 525. But I I one of probably very few 54 plus year olds in the world that can go under five minutes and a five uh 500. And I don't know how where it comes from, I don't know what what it is, but it's like so. Every time I go into a meet, I'm like, is this the time I'm gonna blow up and suck and like do what I think I can do? Like I I never think I can do what I can do, but I end up doing. Like I just I I always I'm amazed by because I like anytime I work out, I just don't even come close to anything that's so I I just expect that I'm gonna go that fast, but I I have never done anything in workout to say that you should be able to do that time. So it's it's always been it's always amazing to me, and it always there's a little bit of fear in me every time I go to a meeting. It's like this could be the time that I just like totally make a fool on myself because it's like I entered this time and I go like a minute slower.
SPEAKER_02:So that's so funny. So you so you're racing for yourself. So just in a in kind of a nutshell, how do how do you taper or recommend tapering for uh uh a mile? Because we do, even if people aren't swimming a mile at nationals, they swim a mile maybe in open water or they're training, you know, they're doing a mile time trial to prep for their triathlon. If it, you know, you're you're a week and a half out now. What are you gonna do between now and nationals?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I don't I don't do a lot different because it's a mile. I I've been doing the same taper for like 20 years. Uh Chris Houchins, I went to the high altitude camp in uh in Color Springs one year, and she had a printed out. She was she coached for Indianapolis. She had a printed out taper, and I just I I've used that like multiple times a year. It's and it's not necessarily for a mile, but for some reason it still works. Like it, I don't I do a lot, I do some broken 200s, uh, you know, 10 seconds rest, and I don't do anything long really. And it it seems to, I it gets me the but I think during the year I do a lot of just more pay like kind of distance ish work. And so I think I you just don't get out of shape, but it it helps me just get the speed, you know, the broken 200s and those kind of things to get the speed for for everything. So I don't do anything special for for the mile, but it it does uh it seems to translate it and you don't you don't lose a lot of shape. Just you wouldn't you wouldn't think you you would you would it would work for that, but it seems to have been working for me.
SPEAKER_01:What's a broken 200?
SPEAKER_00:Just so so you go like uh like uh 450s and you take like 10 seconds rest. So you're kind of you're high intensity, but you're you're only so you you're taking only 10 seconds rest in between, then you just add your time, and that would be your time for a 200. Um I'll put like I'll put like flippers on just to get it so pretend like I'm faster than I really am, and and it helps, you know, kind of a predictor of what you could maybe do a 200 in.
SPEAKER_02:So cool, cool. Um, has there uh ever been a any huge obstacles in your life?
SPEAKER_00:Um the last two years have been sort of chaos for my family. We were we've had so many, you know. I uh my my family had to move, uh my s daughter had to move in with us with her kids, and and my wife had a she did a 24-hour bike race, and you know, it was head injury, clavicle fracture, scapula fracture. My other daughter was getting abused by her husband, and then COVID hit, and you know, I got a we lost a lot of shifts, so I was not working a lot, and ended up losing my job. That's kind of how I ended up moving here, and it's just uh it it I there was I think there were two obstacles that I had going through that last few years. I think maybe everybody went through a lot with COVID and everything, but the the the two obstacles, I think one of them is like the people I worked with, I like worked with them for 24 years. They're my friends, they were my friends at least. They they kind of turned on me, and it's like it's hard to get that sort of that justifiable anger out of your out of your out of your head. And you can go at a religious sort of standpoint and say, Oh, you know, you know, Jesus told us to forgive 70 times seven, so we should do that. But you know, you just want to hold on to it. And I those people that you feel like betrayed you, they they don't they haven't given you a second thought. But the way what it's useful for is to get that out of your head, you have to forgive them because to move on. You you I've never had to do this. It was very hard because it's like they don't think about me at all, and it and I just like was thinking about them every day and wishing cancer on them or something bad, you know, and then just like I gotta get this out of my head. Like I just got and so the obstacle by itself is not a it's something you overcome, it's just like a process. But that was one of the obstacles I got with that. And then the other obstacle I think with that was this feeling of inadequacy, you know, like I'm not good enough, people don't want me anymore. And the spiritual side of me said, Okay, um, you know, got you're you're son of God, God loves you, and you know, you just turn it over to God. My intellectual side said, you know, you need to get away from people that don't believe in you and hate hate you or whatever they are. Uh, you got to be patient with yourself, you got to be, you know, you you gotta be persistent, but you try to be better, but be patient with yourself. And then kind of my like primitive self, I think swimming helps that because it's like I want to get my mojo back. And and I just I want to go, you know. So instead of like going and punching somebody, I just like I think I trained a lot harder last year. And I I think 2021 was probably my my best year. I don't think I don't think I'm not sure anybody's ever done a pool and a long distance all-star in one year. I think I had three number one world rankings next last year and 14 top 10. I had 14 pool and all uh open water uh uh national championships. The then the at nationals last year, I I won overall for the mile, and then I at the San Antonio open water, I won overall for both the mile and three mile. I just I I just it helps me, it helped me get out of that, uh the sort of the the primitive side. So there was a spiritual side and intellectual side, and I don't think I intentionally went through all that, but it's uh looking back on it, I think that's kind of helped me what what I went through to get through those those problems. I love that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that that's intellectual and primitive, yeah. Almost physical.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely you you put a lot of uh that power into your swimming, which is you know what uh we just interviewed Amanda Coker last our last episode on um her riding. She rode 237 miles a day for a year, Kurt, and um you know broke the world record men's and women, and she was, you know. This was so lady bits, by the way. Yeah, yeah. No kidding. No kidding.
SPEAKER_00:But I gotta hear that from my wife all the time. Sorry, carry on.
SPEAKER_02:No, that's you're we hear you. Um Maria rides great recumbent bikes with.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say Amanda did some of it on a recumbent. Your wife can also go recumbent. That's great, yeah. Cruise bikes are great recumbents.
SPEAKER_02:But um, no, I I mean, but anyway, we find that champions like you and Amanda have that driving something deeper. Amanda was bullied, she was coming back from being overweight, she had a lot driving her like you did. So I love that as a takeaway that sometimes when you're getting dished up just a crap sandwich, you're gonna eat it and produce something really nice that's powerful.
SPEAKER_01:When I was angry, I did some of my best events ever. I mean, like truly angry when somebody had truly offended me in a big way. I was I was an amazing athlete. Or I was upset because you know, my my sister got cancer, and it's just like, yeah, I love the division between spiritual, intellectual, and primitive. I think that's so on point. I've never heard anybody elucidate it that way. It's really good.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, now uh it's the fun stuff. We got to get you to a map. So you can get you out of here. But are you this is actually called the sprinter round? And I know you are a distance person, but I saw that you have gone like 24 in the 50 free. Come on, you can sprint. Um, and that's now. So I don't even know what you went as a as a kid, but I know as a 54-year-old, you're going in the 24s. So that is it.
SPEAKER_00:One time in college, one time in college, they put me in the 50 and I beat all the I bit all the 50 swimmers and they were all pushed off on me the rest of the day. It was a it was a dual meeting. I put them in, they they were all sad. They thought they were gonna take me. But anyway.
SPEAKER_02:Well, there is definitely something that you gotta have some type of speed to be able to hold on for you know that kind of pace. But all right, so this is the sprinter round. Are you ready?
SPEAKER_00:I was born ready.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Cat or dog?
SPEAKER_00:Dog.
SPEAKER_02:Red or blue?
SPEAKER_00:Red.
SPEAKER_02:Milk chocolate or dark chocolate.
SPEAKER_00:It's an abomination. Dark chocolate is an abomination. Milk chocolate.
SPEAKER_02:I totally agree with that. No, of course. Mountains or beach? Beach. Football or baseball?
SPEAKER_00:Baseball.
SPEAKER_02:iPhone or Android?
SPEAKER_00:Android, that's just because I'm poor. I don't have anything against the iPhone. I'm just poor.
SPEAKER_02:We're Android too. Maria and I you're the only other person on the planet. Um coffee or tea?
SPEAKER_00:I don't drink any of that stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Wow, that's interesting. No caffeine?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm uh LDS. You've heard that? Yeah, we don't drink coffee too. Oh, gotcha. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01:No alcohol, no, no caffeine of any kind.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Morning person. MMs are okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they're okay. That's that's my vice.
SPEAKER_02:I got caffeine in that. There's some caffeine. I'm a hypocrite. Morning person or night owl?
SPEAKER_00:Um, neither, man. I'm right in the middle. 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. If I could work that shift, I'd do that all day, every day. Don't have to get up too early, don't have to stay up late.
SPEAKER_03:Right in the middle.
SPEAKER_00:And it's only four hours, so I'm gonna go straight through. I wouldn't take lunch or anything. Just 10 a.m. to two. I was no lunch.
SPEAKER_02:I love it. All right, Marie's got some for you. Favorite favorite color.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I I used to think I was a red guy, but I now I'm I think I'm an orange guy. I I don't I I I I wanted to be red, and I'm like, no, I think I'm orange. Took me a long time to get there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, my husband is orange. Yeah, that's a rare favorite color, but I like it. Favorite pizza topping.
SPEAKER_00:Pepperoni.
SPEAKER_01:Favorite vegetable.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think it exists.
SPEAKER_01:Potatoes. They're vegetables. That count.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, potatoes, then I would do that.
SPEAKER_01:And butter. Butter. Yeah. Favorite swim complex in the U.S.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I've always liked uh Texas. I think that was that's uh one of my favorites.
SPEAKER_01:Which is there should I know what what you mean when you say Oh, University of Texas, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:My my my brother swam there and I went there and swam there one summer and it was it was a good it was fond memories.
SPEAKER_01:What kind what kind of music do you like?
SPEAKER_00:I like my favorite is like Joe Jackson. You ever heard of Joe Jackson? Yeah, I'll show you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Shoe size.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, my shoe size, 12.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Uh do you have siblings?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Six of them.
SPEAKER_01:Six, yeah. A favorite Star Wars character.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I yeah, I um I might disappoint you with this, but I I I can't stand a whole Star Wars Enterprise.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I just wear I I don't know, man. I don't I don't get it. I don't understand it. When I would the first one came out when I was like 10 years old, and I was like, I was like, it's okay, why are we going to this 10 times? I don't understand. Can you cook? I mean, I I make a mean waffle and a mean raspberry crepes. That's I I do some breakfast items that are pretty good, and I would challenge anybody.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. What word comes to mind when you first dive in the water?
SPEAKER_00:Um I mean, I I I don't know if it's a word, it's just a relaxation. I like that's just that's my that's my zen there when I get I jump in that just uh just glide, and you're just like I don't know if I I get a word in my head that it just that it just feels you know peaceful and relaxing.
SPEAKER_01:Sort of maybe glide. I like that.
SPEAKER_02:That's I like Zen. That's great. Zen works works too. Oh Kurt, this has been so awesome. So fun. So fun. Yeah, so so fun. Really appreciate your time and uh just wish you all the best in everything you're doing in the pool, out of the pool with your family. And um just thank you, thank you. Win win win.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, thanks for having me. Yeah, all right, take care. All right, bye.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks so much for listening to this champions mojo Encore episode. If it inspired you, please follow the show, share it with a friend, and consider leaving a quick review. It truly helps. And don't forget, my new book, False Cure, is available at Amazon and Barnes Noble. I'll be back in January 2026 with all new episodes to help you live well, swim well, and keep your mojo going.
